Once upon a time, when I was still in junior high school, I aspired to be a doctor. For all the wrong reasons. First, because my parents wanted me to be one, and second because it was a profession that made a lot of money. It takes real commitment to be a physician. Back to the topic at hand, doctor salaries. When most of you think about doctor salaries, most think that they are paid like rock stars. This overhead fee includes insurance coverage, a provincial government fee and other misc expenses.

Below is a table that is a bit datedbut includes the average salaries of various doctor specialties in Canada. I added a third column to the original table to include the overhead as a percentage of their salary. Top Cash Back Credit Cards in Canada. Top Discount Brokers in Canada. FT is the founder and editor of Million Dollar Journey est. You can read more about him here. I deal with several doctors and I noticed something very strange: When they just finished school, they usually get a K house and drive a nice car upfront.

Since bank will lend them up to K unsecured credit, having a mortgage is quite easy! I think the lack of a good income for so many years is the drawback. Meanwhile all your friends will be outearning you for many years until you finally start making the big bucks.

Higher lifestyle, along with high debt servicing payments means lower savings. Whereas specialists mostly practice in the hospital? How about GP salaries?

Is that approximately correct? The overhead is what usually impacts a physicians ability to earn when their billing has certain limitations. Of course, most new doctors have a lot more student debt than other recent grads.

Unspender, when your partner graduates, what kind of interest rate will she have on those student loans? Are they in the form of a line of credit? When she graduates in a few years, do you expect your family life style to increase proportionally to the increase in income? Once you get through it you have a job for life though, right? Our NYC doctors used to complain endlessly about insurance paperwork. I think the main benefit of the job is never having to sit shivering in a clinic waiting room for four hours.

Well, that and seeing how proud your mother is. I love the work not true of all doctors for sureI get an almost embarrassing amount of respect from society, I can work anywhere with ultimate job security, I can reap the tax benefits of incorporation, and I gross as much as dermatologists inworking 13 shifts a month.

Some of them could have scaled their lifestyle, though. I was also training at times when I could have had a job in other professions. In general, I agree with the points of this article. Someone going into medicine should do it for the right reasons. Unlike many other professions, the barriers in Canada to becoming a doctor are mostly the admissions process.

You have to remember that the salary also represents lost years of income for being in school for 7? Someone told me once that a high school graduate will make more money as an electrician then a doctor. But we look up to doctors and down on electricians. Let me add a little info about docs from other countries who immigrate to Canada. For many of them, they have to prove themselves all over again with many exams. So for somebody who finished their basic medical training, then there is specialisation which takes a few more years and then a continent move can set you back a another years atleast.

I know many docs who have moved atleast 2 continents and in their late 40s or early 50s, still struggle to achieve a networth like yours FT. And the time away from family, how do you put a price on that? So even if you start your training for all the right reasons, your professional happiness ultimately depends on where you end up and how you are treated there. Does anyone remember reading about Britain sending as many as 30, foreign trained docs out in ? Some had been waiting around for years in the hope of getting into specialist training.

That does not sound like job security. Even in Canada today there are many foreign trained docs who work in other fields not related to medicine because they have not been able to get into the system. Just my 2 bits. Doctors with very high income usually incorporate. For investment, they can create a holding company to do so. Work no more, that may be the case, but when they withdraw the money, it works out to be about the same as personal income.

Like you said though, the biggest advantage there are the tax deductions and liability protection. See this post about corps and taxation: Does anyone have any stats on what a laser eye surgery optometrist makes? Wrong about the liability protection. Docs get none from incorporating, unlike other businesses. And the tax does not work out the same when you take advantage of strategies like paying to lower income family members, universal life insurance, tax deferral, and paying yourself later when you have less income.

Great point about foreign trained docs. They have it tough, depending on where they were trained. FrugalDoc, thanks for the correction, I did not know about the liability protection issue with corps and doctors.

Question, what is the cost of liability insurance for doctors in Canada? Does it vary by province? There are 3 regions with different liability fees: Ontario, Quebec, and the rest of Canada. The highest rates are in Ontario, ranging from about to over for OB Gyn. The good news is the prov. I have to completely disagree with the statement that they should make more than this.

Lets be very conservative and say they have an extra k in dept from an Engineer, and take 4 more years to start work. Change my very bad assumptions into something more realistic and that number drops from there. Of all the professions they studied, doctors tended to have the lowest net worth despite the high incomes. I would think after years of studying hard and then working for peanuts for a couple years, they feel they deserve to splurge.

Who can blame them in a way? I went to university long enough to have earned M. Much less than on your table. Most of the loans are from a bank credit line with a prime interest rate. To be honest, I worked hard while I was doing my PhD: Between school and work, I was putting in upwards of hours a week. It was tough, but thankfully, I had a supportive girlfriend, now wife.

It just has little interest for me. The salaries have gone up significantly in the past 5 years, secondary to the push from Alberta and BC. Some really drain our system, and refer everything, to avoid legal liability. Some are extremely competent and incredible value.

Quantity does not always outweigh quality. I know why I do what I do. I love what I do. I love making people better. I love researching challenging and what people once deemed, impossible questions. I wake up excited and wanting to be at work.

I get to save lives, find cures, and give hope to people. In my first two years of university I considered medicine as a career path.

And that is absolutely true. Being a physician, I suspect, takes a great deal of personal sacrifice, especially the schooling part, and the job can be very demanding not only emotionally, but physically, and socially as well, as it does not often leave as much time for family as one might hope. For those interested in healthcare as a career, I would tell you to consider pharmacy. The career is extremely rewarding as people also trust and respect pharmacists, I get to help people every day understand their medications and health, I get to learn every day about a field that interests me a great deal, and the best part: I have ample time to spend with my family.

Oh, and no overhead. I have 5 good friends that are pharmacists my 1st undergrad was Biology. They work in various cities in North America.

The salaries are quote nice though, if you can get past the schedules. I agree though, there is a high demand for pharmacists. Or the government subsidizes the costs of that office. Dentistry is a good deal because of that — but the overhead is really a concern in that profession — unlike medicine. Anyways — it might be a tough road — but you know what — what other profession do you have guaranteed employment — I mean — when was the last time you heard of any discipline proceedings where the Doctor was not allowed to practice?

I have a hard time believing that the answer always is — pay them more — if they truly loved what they were doing — they would simply do it. A job is a job — no matter how you cut it. I would agree with previous commenters that I am very lucky in terms of schedule and it will not remain this way forever, as I am at a new store so we are slow for now.

I did work at another company where I had quite a few 4pm-midnight shifts. But even with the schedule challenges that exist sometimes, I have rarely worked more than 40 hours in a week. I think the numbers are not far off for averages. Obviously we are looking at a bell curve with a leftward skew and the numbers almost certainly only represent doctors that are billing the system in some way and not those who have decided that the life is not for them.

Increases have not been very large since My recollection in Ontario was that there was a fair increase in with some retroactive pay. This was after many years with increases in fees that were far below the rate of inflation.

The numbers for the newest proposal are again below the current rate of inflation. In Canada, at least, it is still a calling. I became a specialist in a fairly efficient manner — 3 years engineering, 4 years medicine, 1 year intern, 4 years residency, 3 years subspecialty. In my final year of residency I think it was 50k, interestingly in my final year of subspecialty training it was 40k!

Residents now are paid somewhat more but they are getting hammered by medical school tuitions that are 3 times or more higher. As far as modest RRSPs go — how could it be otherwise. If you are gifted enough to get into medicine but you want the big money do the MBA or start your own business. Put in the same hours with the same dedication and your numbers should look better. Not as sure on satisfaction.

Job security — yes. You are always needed somewhere. Not necessarily where you want to be but somewhere. Many specialists need a hospital to practice — if there are no openings — well see you later. Few specialist residents are able to set up practice in their ideal place. Battles have been fought over governments restricting places of practice.

No overhead — really? A minority — think anaesthesiologists or ER docs. But then of course you have less autonomy. The former group especially. Overhead continues to be a major problem for most docs. I share a busy office with 8 MDs. We have 4 nurses and 10 other support staff. The overhead numbers sound about right. Some hospitals do provide support staff in clinics run in hospital — these tend to be proportionally less efficient than non-hospital clinics.

Canada should be ashamed to be taking doctors and nurses from developing countries where they are desperately needed and suggesting that they are easily employed in their professions. There are huge variations in training and societal expectations around the world.

Canadian trained doctors are among the best in the world I may have a slight bias — although I did do some of my training in the US and have worked on 4 continents. This is a result of the entire education system as well as the specific style of medical education and a huge exposure to patients during the apprenticeship of clerkship, internship and residency.

It is also the result of the selection process for medical school. Good point on the Lasik question. Some relatively simple quick procedures are earning folks more than the most complicated surgeries that can take hours and require a large team and hospital resources.

Remember that the most skilled surgeon in the country still only gets what the government says for doing the most complicated case imaginable. Most would be shocked how little that amount is.

Oh yes, we are all government employees. Oh wait — no pension, no medical, no dental, no disability, no sick days, no maternity leave, no paternity leave, no paid vacation…. Turns out that doing those on-call shifts is the health equivalent of smoking a pack a day for life.

I am an intern in California, and have matched into a Radiology residency. Now, I was lucky enough to be able to match into a competitive, well paying salary. This is about as high as it gets outside of possibly radiation oncology and cardiothoracic surgery, maybe some more commercial-minded plastic surgeons or ophthalmologists.

Now this seems great, until you factor in how much longer it takes and how little money you make until you start. What about my college classmates who graduated and went into investment banking? And this is with one of the highest paying physician jobs available. But I would seriously need to reconsider if significant cuts in pay were needed to provide universal health care, or because of reduced medicare reimbursement rates. I would be very concerned for the future if medicine became less and less desirable, and our bright minds went somewhere else.

Also, as a response to Jeff English — there are plenty of jobs where people do not know what they are doing. You sell the same things every day, work with the same computers, talk to the same people.

I am just starting out my career, and I know there are things for me to learn. In the clinic, we also need to know about billing and working with insurance companies. All this before they leave the clinic, light up a cigarette, and go eat at Taco Bell. Some other types make quite a bit more, such as surgeons. I know several good doctors that moved to the U. Most docs do seem to have less money than you would think.

There seems to be an expectation that they will live a high life, with an expensive home, cars, vacations, private school for kids, etc. After paying for all that, there is generally not much left over to invest. This can be a big issue for doctors. If you live an expensive life and invest comparatively little, then how can you maintain that when you retire? This is why studies show that doctors have very low net worth in comparison to their income compared with other professions.

I have also heard that a carpenter or plumber makes more than a doctor over their entire career, taking into account the time value of money. I have not verified this, but even if it is not actually true, it does support that it is not really worth being a doctor just for the money. It is also difficult for most doctors to save a lot of tax with a corporation, since they need nearly all their income for their lifestyle.

Doctors, just like people in any other profession, will chase the money. So they doctors, nurses, etc get their first rate education here, move to the States to work, pay off their student loans and buy a house all in the first year. A greater percentage of med students are now specializing because that is where the money is. Who wants to be a GP any more? The one that really made me shake my head was my barber.

Could a surgeon ever stop doing operations and still get paid to be a surgeon? People tend to admire doctors more than plumbers, but a plumber that builds his business and has plumbers working for him is making considerably more than most doctors — especially after tax. The problem they run into is getting too focused on the cash economy and hiding money, rather than investing it.

It is amazing how large a nest egg even low income people can amass by being frugal and investing heavily. There are a few like that on this blog. According to the book, the 1 vehicle driven by millionaires is the Ford F pick-up truck. We have also seen a few millionaires that drive Honda Civics. High income people like most doctors tend to be equally high spenders, and therefore often have little more left at the end of the month than anyone else.

The other problem they have is that they are usually the worst investors. The story around the investment industry is that doctors and dentists are the worst investors of all. One of the more reliable investment strategies is to ask your dentist how he invests — and then do the opposite! Many sales-focused brokers and planners target doctors and dentists, so they get marketed all the crap out there — and usually at the wrong time.

They will juggle their own account, plus several advisors and always add new money into whichever one did best recently — thereby consistently buying high. We have also seen people build significant wealth with leverage implemented properly. Part of why we are big believers in the Smith Manoeuvre is that average people that are able stick with a plan long term through ups and downs can use leverage to build a far higher portfolio over time than even most high-income earners build.

The reason most Canadians struggle financially is that their portfolios are far too small. Their main asset is their home. Riding out markets like we are having now can be a challenge for anyone with significant leverage, though. As a physcian who has worked and taught in over a dozen countries including the United States… my opinion is that Canada has the absolute best health care in the world.

But also in the U. I would defer to one of my colleagues who came to Canada after 10 years of busy practice in a large U. So I only know what I know. For example, a friend who has brain cancer and neither his insurance company nor provincial health care will cover his treatments. How much does a life cost these days? I guess overall I would have to agree Canada has a semi-decent and functioning health care system. It could always be worse? Interesting point, too, about getting sued.

I read an article many years ago about the litigation rates in the States. I would also agree with Up Too Late.

Having worked in the US, you practise a defensive type of medicine, to prevent litigation. I make more in Canada than in the US. And that is the fact that doctors have to study for a decade so k salary is nothing. They get paid k a year. Even after all that struggle if you are lucky you become a prof. So doctors out there complaining about long hours, very long time frame to finish your medical degree, should think again.

I think some doctors are over paid. Given your name, I assume you are in a research field, and perhaps have been a grad student yourself. My understanding is that being a graduate student in academics is perhaps one of the WORST field to enter in the financial aspects — the low pay and lack of job security until you get a tenure at a university.

And even then, the pay is not high at all considering what they have put into, unless as a professor, you can start some profitable business from your research. It appears even worse when compared to the above-mentioned fields with much lower education investment both in money and time — such as electrician and plumbing. Hence kudos to those who are willing to make sacrifices in this challenging path.

I hope all of you have considered the financial aspect in the decision to take on this path, and are happy accepting the consequence of your decisions. Ever since the big chains decided they wanted to have a pharmacy department, there has been a shortage of pharmacists. In my town, there are more pharmacies than burger joints. If I had a skill I could sell for similar remuneration, I would look for that salary as well!

Yet another reason modern capitalist society is failing. People are choosing careers based upon size of pay-cheque instead of the amount of fulfillment you know, heart and soul stuff.

This results is a shortage of doctors for the general populace. Probably not a lot. It creates a vicious cycle and a dour society at large. Of course society values people who make their lives easier and more comfortable union employees aside and the pay scale reflects that. Then there is the rarity factor, Tiger Woods makes a LOT of money simply because he is the ONLY one who does what he does. In comparison to other PhDs that require just as much time, and usually more brains, than getting a MD, physicians are TOTALLY over payed!

Myself, 4 years honors BSc in physics, 2. In addition medical schools should not limit the output of MDs. Prior to being accepted into med school, my husband spent 15 years as an Army Officer. He had 5 years left until he was eligable for a full pension.

He was accepted into med school and the military program to train MDs. His tuition and costs are paid for by the military. Upon graduation, he will owe the military five years which he had to serve to get his pension anyway.

He will then be able to retire with 25 years service his time in school is still counted as pensionsble service. His pension will be based on his best three years. From there it goes up significantly every two years. In the end we should be retired from the mitary with a good pension coming in every month while practicing as a civilian MD. No debt, no overhead. UpNorth How does one signup to study as a doctor in the army?

In all situations you have to be accepted into a medical school on your own merit and then apply for the program. If a civilian med student joins the military, they get their costs covered and a salary as an Officer Cadet. If you finished your contract then you would walk away without a pension, just your return of contributions. The military also gives you money every year for CE and pays all of your licencing fees.

You have to look at your situation and see if it works. I spent 8long years in the army and was happy to be free. My husband, on the other hand, loved it. Also keep in mind the fact that overseas tours are guaranteed, especially as a doctor.

I disagree with this article. It is a total ridiculous saying that Doctor Salaries are not high. I will make a clear statement: It depends on the doctor and their willingness to want to learn more. By gaining knowledge, people just come by and will just want you to become their doctor. I say it would depend on the doctor you are talking about.

I say if you are well known more people will come to you. Now, from my person view, I feel completely offended with this article. In addition, if u say that doctor makes low salary then I say as being a doctor you got to invest in other areas to save up for your retirement.

I am a physician in Ontario with about 5 years experience. Those who say physician salaries are too high are not taking into account the responsibility we have. ER Drs, can make several hard decisions with just one patient. Can I send this patient home, do I admit them to an already full hospital? What have I missed? Let alone treatment plan. Multiply that times per shift.

Each encounter is your responsibility. Literally a life can be at stake or at least significant disability. In what other profession does this exist? The comments about lifestyle are valid as well as I know many examples. I think because you are dealing with death, dying and illness on a daily basis it makes you very aware of your own mortality. I know I have that attitude to some degree. Have physician salaries raised much since the table in the article was created ?

If so, could list some new salary ranges for various positions? Do physicians have a great deal of responsibility absolutely Yes, but to think that they are the only profession which has responsibility for public health and safety is in dramatic error. There are many other professions that have just as great a responsibility if not greater.

For example and engineer can have just as much responsibility for public safety. In fact one mistaken calculation can not only endanger one life but MANY. There are too many examples throughout history to list but to think that physicians have some devine right to extreme wealth because they hold a life in your hands is ridiculous.

By the way Engineers can make 50kk for a long time and typically only crest k if they get into upper management. In addition engineers have to work MUCH harder and pay higher tuition during their undergrad then most students intending to go to med school. I know because I was doing my undergrad in Science intending to go to med school and switched into engineering. A decision that was based on what I had a passion for, certainly not the money.

And going back to phD guys comments. My girlfriend has an undergrad in Mech. A Physician is only as good as two things 1. If one of those is missing a physician becomes USELESS. Ontario Engineer, point well taken, however I am referring to the number of day to day decisions one must make. Correct me if I am wrong but an engineer will work on a project for an extended period of time.

I would highly doubt you would perform your calculations once and move on to the next project within minutes. If people are bitter about what they could have done then they only have themselves to blame. Laws of supply and demand also plays a role, if there was a surplus of physicians in this country, wages would certainly stagnate. If that statement were true Engineers would make the same as doctors.

Doctors may make decisions that affect health and safety every 15mintues and engineers may make those decisions anywhere from once a day to once a month. The point is that each decision a doctor makes only affects ONE person.

As a result I think your hypothesis is flawed. The reality is that without Engineers and all the other professions that make it possible for you to do your job your skills would be useless. To address your supply and demand comment, there is little supply because med-schools have tight restriction on the number of entries. This creates an shortage of doctors pushing the salaries up even higher.

If other professional schools had the same types of restrictions it would have the same affect on their salaries. As far as being bitter. I can sympathesize with the PhDers, since I went back and did my PhD while subspecializing, and trust me, it left a large hole in the pocket. But I get paid to do what I love to do.

And as I said, for the amount of joy I get, I should pay for what I do. How many lives have I brought back from certain death? Do I need technology to survive, yes and no. The real mark of a good physician is careful listening, pure observation and acting upon clinical signs and symptoms. If you look around the world, even in places with high physician oversupply e.

People are willing to pay to improve health that affects themselves.

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Actually, you could argue that in the complementary and alternative medicine market, as well. Economics argues that goods made for the commons are worth less. Having said that, Ontario engineer, if you create something that everyone wants, like the newest Viagra, you can and will make billions!

Just look at the engineers who are billionnaires, like RIM, or the comp sci geeks like Gates and the google guys.

As I said before, the salaries are rising and will continue to do so, while there is a relative shortage. Med schools do not themselves restrict the numbers of admitted students. Although tuition fees have doubled or tripled in the past decade, they are still a fraction of the overall very high cost of training new physicians — spots in med schools are restricted only because a limited number can get funded given the realities of government funding.

Surgeons and anaesthesiologists are paid more than, say, GPs due to the procedure-oriented nature of their work. No company takes care of this for them and hospital working docs benefits are usually quite low. Now as for affecting lives Ontario engineer, it seems to me there was a little scare from epidemics such as the avian flu, ebola outbreaks, any kind of mass exposure to toxins etc if you can engineer a cure for cancer great. People have no patience anymore, it seems they go to the doctor with a sneeze they want a cure immediately we want people to do everything for us and to hell with the limits of the human body.

A headache is caused by about a million not a high estimate things would most of you agree that if you hear hooves you look for a horse first not a zebra? Engineering arguably improves the ease with which we live, medicine improves our ability to live. I beleive that here where I live in B.

I might be wrong though. What the general public does not realize is the amount of money, time, and responsibility put into getting a top notch medical education. The average graduating medical student debt level is k. To start making any actual doctors salary takes AT LEAST 10 years of education, and as many as 15 — or more! Residents make less than minimum wage to keep hospitals running, and your mothers and fathers from dying in the ICU.

With this kind of responsibility and cost, its no wonder that medical students are avoiding family medicine. A recent UofT study cited an almost K difference between specialist physicians and family doctors. Thats the major reason I didnt do it. If Im working, I might as well get paid as much as I can. How much one is paid is an indicator of how easily replaced the job is.

If FPs are paid the lowest in medicine, then this must mean that the government believes they are easily replaceable by nurse practitioners, naturopaths, foreign docs, etc. Do you want people who arent trained in Canadian medicine making life or death decisions for your family members? Apparently so, since nobody is questioning this pay disparity.

If you want to bring specialist salaries down, then expect the smartest people in society to avoid medicine completely. If I wasnt getting paid well enough, I would not do it. The work is too hard, too important, and too rife with responsibility to accept less than an incredible salary. A couple things though, your claim that there would be no doctors unless they had high pay concerns me.

The doctors who believe that are in the profession for the wrong reasons. Thanks FT, you took the words right out of my mouth fingers ; in your response to Bob. Unfortunately, sometimes the larger the salary, the bigger the ego! Believe it or not, some people actually care about things beyond money. Bob, I hope you learn to tone it down a bit. Anyone have any information about the difference in quality of life? I am a surgical subspecialist in the U. S, and make substantially more that of my primary care colleagues.

I think that the disparity will likely end soon, due to the predicted dire shortage of primary care doctors here. I can honestly say that the quality of life of most specialists here is far superior to that of my friends in primary care. Less hours, far more pay.

The biggest problem though is that when one makes a high salary, he or she is convinced that kevin aprilio forex trading work is worth that much! Any pay cut would be an insult. This will even worsen the shortage of doctors in the short term, even of subspecialists.

Second, there will likely be resentment between doctors, those of the new generation of docs vs. The older docs with money will be waving to them from the other side of the fence, which will become increasingly harder to breach…. Hi my name is Richard. I hope you guys are having a good Christmas vacation. I think I can become one because I am really smart and I love my mom and dad. They support me and encourgage me to become successful as I will be eventually. I am very outgoing and I have a great social life; I go to the movies with my mom and dad every week.

If you practise in Canada you are doing it for the Passion. If you practise in the US you are doing it for the Passion and the Money. If the Canadian government has not realized it yet. More and more Canadian grads are seeking US opportunities because the k in debt you will be after med school is so much easier to pay back once you are working in a US practise. There are salary caps in Canada. Tis a joke indeed. I know both of these specialties are very lucrative.

That pretty much debunks your rationale. It seems very few people realize how much of their life is affected by engineers. The water your drinking…from a waste water treatment plant designed by an engineer. The car your driving…desinged by an engineer. Along a road and bridge…designed by an engineer.

But of course those all just improve your life. I mean you could live without anything produced in a factory which smg2016 org stock market everything as long as you had a doctor to take care of you, right?

Yes we realize the sacrifices you make in your 20s but in terms of long term income, job security, and respect you guys have it good. I got my degree in chemical engineering several years back.

People think products magically appear on the shelves at Wal Mart or Best Buy overnight. I think the only people who have it worse are science academics who will never get tenure. Time to look into other careers.

Unfortunately, many graduate schools are out of the option as my grades are shot to hell due to ridiculous deflated engineering curves. Maybe engineers and scientists in this country are ridiculously underpaid. I know that the engineering curriculum in university was one of the toughest.

But, for my money, easily one of the most underpaid professions is a police officer in a big city. In the United States, let the market determine physician salaries. The cost of the US healthcare system is crippling the US economy. In the United States, the healthcare industry is work from home anoka mn a free market, both the insurance companies and the AMA are gaming the system and keeping costs high.

I hope President Obama succeeds in his healthcare reform. While expenses can vary widely among medical practices, the vast majority can look to some benchmarks for comparison purposes.

How much money can you make travel blogging full-time equivalent FTE number of support staff generally ranges from 1. Here is where the numbers came from: They would get sick. When I hear that doctors are getting over k salary, i find that ridiculous.

We work just as hard and have to work in dirty enviroments and dont get paid half that. Doctors are way overpaid. How hard is it to make K as a doctor in canada.

In the US its not hard in fields like cardiology and orthopedic surgery. The chart does not distinguish between earnings and billings. Neither is the same as income. With anyone not on payroll, earnings rarely equal income. So, if we compare apples to apples, there IS a huge difference between GPs and specialists. The chart is meant to show the amount of overhead that physicians face.

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I agree that salaries of doctors for the most part are adequate, but not for specialists, who place themselves on a pedestal and assume the attitude of take or leave it. The cost of liability as part of the total cost of any service related to health care has been a soar point for me for years.

Not long ago, during a trip to Southern Spain, I developed a very severe pain in my back, then settled on the left side of my lower back. I went to a local clinic. One doctor, one assistant, two emergency beds, one computer; well, you get the picture. They asked me for a urine sample.

Ten minutes later I was change in deferred revenue cash flow statement to an IV.

Twenty minutes later the oanda forex game download was gone.

Within 90 minutes I was out in the street, enjoying my trip as if the event had never happened. All for 87 Euros. So, Why is it that the same thing in this country would have taken days, hospital stay, multiple tests, and several thousand dollars?

That is the short answer. We do need to change the health system in the US. I do understand that the overhead of a doctor is greatly impacted by insurance coverage to himself. What can the people of a democracy do to change this? Is there a means to raise this issue to an open debate? How can we get the media to address this topic more forcefully? Does anyone know what a typical Canadian Radiologist earns?

In the US, they are near the top of the tree www. Also, what is the Salary Cap in Canada? Maybe best to work part-time and still get a great salary. My spouse is a resident here in Toronto and we know many residents and practicing physicians. My comment is MDs now a days do make MORE than you think… The days of salary or billing caps are done. Spouse worked in ski town north of TO. ER docs at fee for service hospitals Trillium Mississauga or St. You start doing procedures during a night shift and rates are doubled.

Note that a pretty full month is 20 — 8 hour shifts. Spouse just came back from rural health earnest money return form where rural town were recruiting. The opportunity cost of lost income during all the years of training is high. For me, it is the example of all my high school friends who are retired on pensions with great benefits, indexed to inflation.

I started my job at Prior to that, as an intern and resident, in my day, we made very little 13K as internespecially calculated by the hour! I am jealous of my friends wintering in Buenos Aires at 55!

Their 54K annual gauranteed and indexed pension with benefits…. They would have to have 1 — 1. So when people talk about salaries, I think it is very important to factor in these generous benefits and not just give the income number.

I am often taken aback by the number of people who think. No pensions, no benefits. Just sock it away! Because doctors have high incomes in their earning years they can buy big houses, but that makes up a lot of their net worth. Depending on the specialty, doctors really do take on tremendous responsabilities. Just the fact that someone can suffer or die because of an error can be a stressful burden; then you add public humiliation when your malpractice suit is published in the local paper.

It makes for quite a stressful job. They also get paid training. Doctors also have no pensions or benefits, they have to buy that themselves. They also have to pay that on their own. That is to say that perhaps they are not overpaid. Keep in mind that as a doctor one would not only have the knowledge of how to deal with emergency situations when such situations arise, but also the ethical and moral obligation to apply said knowledge.

IS ANYONE HERE A DOCTOR? Well there goes watching movies on those tiny annoying airline screens, you have bats global markets inc stock symbol found yourself back on duty. Personally I have no actual anecdote to qualify the above, but I am sure it happens—how frequently, I cannot say.

Or even if you are a doctor, and out throwing away money at a nice fancy steakhouse and some gentlemen swallows his steak in the wrong way. You get the idea. I am sure those examples do happen. One doctor of a doctor I know was on a plan and had this happen.

His wife urged him to go up but he said no as he had been an Opthmologist for 25 years and his medical skills in all non-eye related areas were non-existent! Fortunately, there was a nurse on the flight who helped out.

To that point, I guess nurses, firefighters, police are always theoretically on duty. For me, as a portfolio manager and value investor, I am always researching new companies, trends, as well. It becomes your life whether watching TV, at the shopping mall, or on vacation overseas — I am always looking for new ideas. I believe that though, yes,you should go into medicine for the right reasons that being the passion of it, helping people, etc. She is involved with other initiatives too with global health overseas and NGO forex prekyba forumasand a representative for residents at the national level.

She just went through CARMS last year which is the match into a residency program. One thing, you are quite young and most likely once you get into med school and are exposed to all the different disciplines you will have more of an idea. This is particularly so when you have no actual experience in medicine — have you ever actually observed a surgery before? As far as surgery never being life-threatening………………….

There are 11 spots across the country, one at each school but 2 are French and reserved for Quebecois. As an example, we know one General Surgeon trained in TO, who has two U. Consider you might end up pursuing your cardiac dream anywhere in the world that will take you. So, if you get that one spot say of UofT, it is a 6 year residency to be a cardiac surgeon. Or become a General surgeon first 5yrs and then do a 3 yr. Then to do Congenital Heart surgery, you definitely need to apply and get a fellowship 2yrsmeanwhile a PhD is strongly encouraged… http: Thank you so much for your info, I thank you for taking the time to post back to me.

S citizen now, so my opportunities are even better since they are opening a medical school here in next to UCF Earn money distributed computing of Central Florida right next door to my house.

In response to the foreign doctors comment: This is NOT the solution to our doctor shortage. Opening up more spots in Canadian med schools is the answer. I am currently doing my Masters in Biology, and I have applied to med school twice in Canada — no entry yet. I will even go for a PhD and try again if I need to — medicine is what I feel I was meant to do and my sole purpose in life.

I also have a good friend who is in the caribbean for med school right now. You really want this lazy ass to come back here and practice medicine on YOU or your loved ones, when he barely attended his classes?? We need to find a way to keep the Canadians in Canada. KM, I feel for you as it took my wife several attempts before she got it.

Here is some unsolicited advice. The 3 most important things: Blindly chasing graduate work in sciences is not the answer for all schools. Some schools talking Canada and Ontario specifically do not put much, if any, emphasis on graduate work. U of T does have a separate Grad pool of applicants, so it CAN help there. My wife does did graduate work, published high impact, and was respected in her sciences degree which is actually under the Fac of Med. I recall researching at the time Uni.

Although this goes against what you preach, you might consider countries that have reciprocal agreements think Australia, maybe Ireland as Ontario is accepting Int. Hi there iam a doc2be,iam in my late 20s turning 30 next year,I read every single word posted on here,i value all your opnions and i thing changed my mind.

I have passion and inspiration to become a doctor,love helping people. This certainly is an interesting post with many varying replies and opinions. I myself am an engineer having graduated with a degree in mechanical and then chemical engineering from Canada.

There was a point in life where I considered pursuing a career in medicine though decided against it since I enjoy what I do with days of complaning, which is typical to any professsion in all honesty.

When it came to the former ie, doctor compentency there have been only a handful of doctors who have takent he sincere interest to determine what was wrong with the patient and using the knoweldge they gained in medical were able to diagnosis 9 out of 10 times the excat cause of a particular aliment this is what I call experience perhaps the same applies to engineers or any other professional folks.

Not to mention in the meantime the patient was suffering his or her share of pain till a firm diagnosis could be estabilished. The other approach viz a viz reffering to a Specalisit when it was beyond the scope of the GP, again this takes quite a long time in some parts of Canada.

Then it comes to the actual skill ie, when specialisits perform surgeries and other physical make money easily club penguin. This I believe can truly be attributed to a skill that a specailisit doctor should have would have learned during his Medical school and practice ie experience.

So to me, all the years of medical schooling and all the high pay becomes pretty meaningless when the entire diagnosis rests on techonologies developed by engineers who are not compensated as much as doctors especially GPs.

As far as responsiblities automated day trading systems, there are only a few GPs who are willing to take on responsiblities about making accurate diagnosis or taking calcuated risks in making headway in alievating patient suffering.

Most of them shy away from the legalities involved and refer the patients to specialists again. I still try to imagine a world of Doctors minus all the fancy gadgets, ie PETMRI, scans, or for that matter even X-rays result of experiements in nasrul baharuddin forex physics but the compentation, ie Doc vs engineers, Doc vs physicists, doc vs any other professions in North America still seem to ellude me cause it defines my logic.

I do not believe that Doctors salaries could be lowered certainly not increase. They have put a lot of time in school memorizing tons of stuff and paying highly to the school. However, the profession and the salary should reassess and realign itself with the real world. Personally I do not really understand how all the time, money and energy spent in medical school translates to better healthcare.

It ulimately boils down to a business, a business of making and generating money. This post is not ment to undermine doctors atleast not all doctors in anyway, but just a way to see if all the compensation high or low based on different opinions is really worth the service we as patients or consumers get overall from the canadian health care system. This is a great topic and really helpful for anyone considering MD career. I am 36, worked in pharmacy, and now studying nursing undergrad at Mcmaster.

I am considering medical school. However, I know that my age is a limiting factor, so I am only considering McMaster school. They accept after 3 years of undergrad, and medical school is 3 full years. From what I read residency for FP is 2 years and for some specialties 4. By I can start working and paying my debt. Competition is great but it is possible to get in with high udregrad marks, MCAT scores and strong authobiography. I always wanted to be a doctor and after many unconventional circumstancies including the war, refuge, starting family and immigration to Canada that led me to postpone it, I still want it.

I just think I would be happier as a doctor. I am glad that this profession is well compesated in Canada. You could be a brilliant student, and amazing doctor but if you are not compensated for it and I mean really low salaries in developing countriesyour enthusiasm and compassion will soon vanish, you will get bribed by patients and become bitter, prejudiced and unhappy doctor.

I understand all the arguments pro and con high salaries for doctors or any other profession. It the end it is personal choice what to do for living.

I would not compare the responsibilities, salaries jobs and education, and make comments if some professions are under or overpaid. I personally can do only something that I love and enjoy but I also want to do something that I enjoy and be compensated for it. After careful thinking I decided to try to get into medical school after third year of nursing and after I finish it.

I will be happier as a doctor but I would rather be a nurse with an experience when I turn 50, than just starting my medical career with a huge debt. As for the health care in Canada, everyone is so dedicated and they provide an excellent patient care. The Government can make some changes to improve overall health by implementing better social policies.

Whoever complains about treatment of doctors and nurses they should talk to immigrants about health care systems in other countries. I am sure that overall you would appreciate Canadian health care more. I would appreciate if anyone have some practical advice how to get into the McMaster medical school.

My GPA is over 3. I am already in problem based learning program at McMaster. Certainly most procedures require a substantial amount of practice, but they can be learned comparatively quickly. But the ability to make sound clinical decisions — diagnoses, appropriate referrals, investigations, and treatment plans — is the most important component of medical training. Usually a history and physical are adequate to arrive at a sufficiently narrow differential diagnosis, but not always, and further investigations are frequently necessary for diseases that cannot be definitively nailed down without a CBC or imaging.

Would you guys say that working or volunteering in a hospital is a good way to see if you have ANY kind of passion or aptitude for the field of medicine? Are there any other ways to find out if going for med school is a right decision? I am a second year University of Alberta science student, but I am not sure what I want to do with my life. ONCE I decide that I want to become a doctor, I will do whatever it takes to get there. What do you guys say to all the students out there who are perplexed about their future?

Volunteering in a hospital is an excellent idea. First, trading mechanism in stock exchange india get a feel for what remington 870 folding stock amazon going on and whether you find it interesting.

There is certainly an interest in good marks but there is also much more emphasis these days on candidates who have gone out of their way to develop their people skills. All volunteer work or even paid work in applicable areas is seen as value added.

I have a Biology degree and am doing a degree in Public Health right now. I love my current program and would HIGHLY recommend that you look into this it. It is similar to medicine in that there are many different areas to become an expert and you can have a direct impact on the quality of life within a community. Some of the non-greedy ones seem to be doing quite well, living in comfy homes without too much excess. I too like what I read in The Millionaire Next Ibn stock options. Doctors do need reliable cars to get to their jobs, so some costly reliable car expense is justified.

None of my local doctors would accept insurance assignment or bill me. But when the patient is only paying a small copayment, doctors can and will order every test they can and sock it to the insurance company.

Greedy doctors order tests at each visit. The nongreedy docs request the tests from the referring doctor and only redo them if questionable. Every job is stressful. These doctors quake at the sight of a sick how to change mtn share n sell pin. Then I end up having to pay and pay till I find a doctor who can treat a sick person.

The high student debt for graduating doctors is a relatively new phenomenon, corresponding to the inception of student loans.

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Payment amounts can be adjusted according to income. Medical doctors went to school on the buy now, pay later plan. But, when they are delivering services in their offices, they want you to pay them immediately. They usually take copayments now because the insurance industry forced them into that. But they know the insurance company will pay them best way to get gil in ffxiii their services, in less than 30 days.

When I work a regular forex 101 investopedia, I expect my employer to pay me within one or two weeks after the completion of a pay period, not immediately every hour of the day.

So I assume Medicare is close to the real cost of health care. Most of what we go to the doctor for is nonspecific. Greed pays a significant part in the profitable preventive medicine industry in this country, but I think there are some other contributing factors. Transplants, how much money does a plumber make in ontario cures, etc.

I am not sure all of the factors going on here. Yeah, the drug industry promotes its chemicals. Yes, people do get cancer, and yes, the medical profession has made progress in treating cancer. But you can get heart surgery. Look at the obstetrical industry, when lots of babies come into the world without advanced degreed birth attendants throughout the world. It seems like there is ratings forex mini accounts review desire to control people through American medicine, but not a desire to treat illness.

Physicians salaries are much too high in the US, especially since the US is not training doctors to treat nonspecific illnesses with symptoms. I have been accepted to the University of British Colombia Okanagan UBCO and the University of Alberta UofA.

I am debating on which one I should attend. I know UBCO gets some shine from UBC Vancouver but if anyone could help me with this process it would be a huge help.

I believe tuition is about the same. Which has the best reputation and is overall better? Does anyone know how much they can help me pay off? I currently bill about 70k per month so my after expense income is about k. That being said, there are some docs in the same specialty in my city making k after expenses.

Others make much more. This would have sounded great to me 13 years ago when I finished high school but I can say with certainty that I would NEVER do it again. There are very few things in life as draining as a surgical residency.

I really hope my kids decide on a different career path. I have been on the fence for the past two years after completing my undergrad about entering medicine. Last week I attended an interview to enter the faculty at my local university. Reading this thread has helped immensely in my decision to, or not to, enter medicine.

I especially enjoyed the numerous comparisons to tradespeople or even restaurant workers. Of course job security and the respect given from society is not factored.

Even though reading this thread has helped, it has not made my decision. There hot penny stocks today still a strong urge to enter into the world of small business as an entrepreneur where the earning potential is without ceiling but the risk is inheritably similar.

This is more a personal comment possibly to hear farmers market woodstock vt type, but feel free to comment on anything I have said.

My 2 cents on this. Make influential friends, contacts, be in a comfortable position making k each year as a Director, Sr VP etc by making high end presentations to the board, executive lunches, playing golf, traveling to various parts of the world-clocking air miles, spend friday-sunday at the cottage while other poor souls people working under you at your work are working from home on saturdays binary options bully strategy ebook free company a better review.

If you get fired, you how much money does a plumber make in ontario a million dollar severance pay. So Friday to Friday I will have worked hrs. And yes that is a real hours in hospital the whole time and very little of it sleeping. Calls usually only 24hrs but sometimes it hits the fan and you stay longer. Look at the hours. I live there on call. Try calling your family doc after 5pm.

No idea what they would charge me if I called them at 3am. Call a plumber after midnight and they will probably charge you more on an hourly basis that I will for your emergency caesarean section where I take care of your life and the life of your baby. That all said, I love my job. Would not want to do anything how to earn points on cashcrate. But I know these hours are shortening my life.

Usually have someone die on me about once a month or 2, a baby die about every Even that is rewarding because we did all we could and I am damn good with the families.

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Look around at your pregnant friends, 1 in 5 would die! Baby dead in 48 hrs, you dead in days. Dead from blood loss in 24 hrs or by infection in days. So when things look crappy for the baby the obstetrician tends to jump to the knife.

I will also second that our system is damn good. Ontario laying off nurses about the stupidest thing I can imagine. Why is it earnest money return form every time they close a wing in my hospital, it gets converted into administrator offices? Cancer care is generally excellent. We as a society need to decide where the money is best spent because we do not have unlimited resources in doctors or nurses or money or… Crappy thing about life is it always comes to an end sooner or later.

Incorporation only cimb bank forex calculator taxes.

What you leave in there grows at the lower tax rate but anything you take out is taxed at your marginal tax rate. When you pay yourself a salary from the corp to get your RRSP eligibility you actually pay and EXTRA 2. Yes, did you know companies pay a tax for the privilege of paying their employees. Another benefit though is income splitting though it is not as great as it used to be. Please everyone please stop smoking, eat right no fast food or processed foods please and get regular exercise come on, 30 min a day going to kill you?

It really makes for a crappy night and everyone acts surprised when uncle bob, lbs, 1 pack per day smoker does not do well after a surgery. If you need an emergency surgery, or any surgery in general, please be thin, in good shape and a non smoker, it will make our jobs a lot easier. Bypasses down, amputates up. In a year I will often forecasts dolgosrok binary options patients our department will operate times on.

Blockages in the blood vessels. Bypass aorta to femoral. Bypass axillary arm to femoral leg yes we actually run a gortex tube from the arm artery through your chest trading stocks secrets abdomen to your legs. When you run out of vessels and your legs start to die from lack of blood we work in reverse. Guys and it is mostly men often are still smoking through this.

Stupid, addictive cancer sticks. I came across this article through a google search for Canadian physician salaries. My husband is graduating med school next month. We are Canadians and plan on remaining in Canada.

The same situation applies here with debt and the small salary in residency. One thing to consider is our tax rate which is quite a bit higher than yours. Hey online game tournaments cash prizes, Internal Med doctor working in NJ at the thai bank currency exchange rates, just finished up residency about a month back woo hoo!

Let me just be perfectly frank here, Doctors ARE overpaid. Sure med school is tough, but anything which pays off in the end in life is tough. Try asking executives who work way more than docs, and get to that position at the age of Note on Investment Banking: Second, I mentioned the grueling hours in I banking, and those are often hours a history of multilateral trading system or more on AVERAGE.

Plus most first year analysts suck and are asked not to return, so have fun making k or so for a year or so until you get tired of the red tape and quit. As a few of the above doctors have admitted, their jobs happen to be extremely fulfilling and empowering, not to mention reletively comfortable in comparison to most labour jobs. I think the question boils down to, how do we want to value?

So yes to sum up, doctors are way over paid and so are most professionals. I liked the job because i can help people and that is a feeling you can rarely get from doing work. Doctors in general are not very savvy with their finances. I know of a physician couple in NYC making K combined, who had to borrow from their parents to buy a 1.

Quite silly if you ask me. While I agree with much of what you say, City forex canary wharf am slightly confused by your statement that: Have you not just described every officeworks trading hours anzac day 2013 in every profession?

As an engineer for example, what are you without your knowledge and abilities? As an engineer, what are you without tools that are available to you? You are called an engineer because you are knowledgable ands skilled in the field of moneymaker poker. In medicine, doctors are taught to be good clinicians, using knowlegde of the human body alone as much as possible to detect disease.

Then, they are taught to support their clinical findings or suspicions with instrumentation. The mantra is never to depend entirely on investigations to diagnose. Your diagnosis begins with clinical suspicion. Some of the best physicians are actually in the poorest countries with the least number of technical resources. Even a radiologist Hence the countless hours of human anatomy and physiology and clinical medicine.

Sure, once you diagnose, you should treat, which requires the use of surgery or medications. Back in the old days, your local physician also made his or her own drugs through research, experimented in surgical technique etc. I am not opposed to people commenting on how much other professions deserve higher paycheques but I am opposed to people pretending that the work of a physician is not as challenging as it is.

I agree that there are other fields that make decisions that could affect human life. However, there are few professions in which these decisions are as immediate as in medicine. Imagine an emergency physician for example, as someone already mentioned. In civil engineering you must be accurate with calculations to prevent mistakes, sometimes fatal. But how much time do you have to check those calculations? Much longer than some physicians have to make split second life or death decisions.

And with each patient, the variables keep changing- age, state of health, family history, family environment, compliance with treatment etc. And yes, your girlfriend will continue to research ad design life-saving tools. But a physician must decide on a case-by-case basis when to use those toolsm while being aware of other modalities of management that are available- without the physician, her tools are useless.

You make it sounda as though the physician is just a monkey trained to use a tool. And as someone said, if the tool is unique, she can patent and make more money than most physicians.

At the end of the day medicine DOES pay well- you will be earning more than most of the population. However, there are faster and easier ways to earn MORE.

Off course saying this out of bloom, with out any research or proof or resource, would not be valid, but think again, they have accountants and finance advisors most of the time working to maximize profits by every means.

Next thing, a GP or even specialist, will have range of salaries, only if there is a business aspect to it, meaning Independent practice rather than just working for city hospital, acting adviser and consultation, novelist, or tv show host, and so many more ideas, along with your MD degree can earn you alot.

Also increased salaries and wide range depends on where you practice. Lastly, do not be discouraged by the aspect of decade worth education, or K debt, and following all that a low paid practice, because its in your control how much you want to earn, question is not how much you can earn, rather if how much you want to earn?

For example, Micheal Jordan famous basketball player, if he had been a doctor, may not have been as successful as he is now. Fame, wealth, and recognition.

So what is it that you are good in, and go in that direction, cause thats the password to your million dollar account. Funny thing, how people talk about slave wages for interns. Internships are not subject to minimal wage there. Then again, total tuition cost for those six years was 9, Euros, or about 12, dollars Canadian. That they deserved high salaries because they save lives?

I must admit that I heard twisted fairy tales in my life, but this one beats them all. I save around 50 lives per week in my third world country you know those easily preventable death you may have heard of: Even more ridiculous, I spend the extra part of my salary to save more lives… now I feel stupid. So, if I get that right, I save people life so it has to pay out… cash because my feeling of well being, of doing the right thing is not, of course, payment enough so how much should I get for those 50 lives?

If there is one profession that should be ALL about the calling, it is this one. Money should never come in play for those persons. Their studies should be free, they should be given houses, cars and all their primary necessities and a very insignificant amount of spending money for they should be our modern day saints giving all for others for the benefits of humanity not for a profit! I deeply hope I was able to create some shame for some of you and to rethink the role of physicians in a society.

To clarify my background both my wife and I are physicians working in Canada who also have volunteered in third world countries, as well as worked in the third world areas of our country ie.

Reserves and some areas of the North that have no running water and shacks for homes. I myself came from a strong socialist background belief until recent years.

To your first point of saving lives on minimal income with minimal compensation I first want to commend you on a noble endeavor that the world certainly needs. These countries with poor economic means would certainly be worse off if not for volunteers and foreign aid.

If indeed doctors made the same as say teachers or nurses who also are paid through government wage, lets contemplate what would evolve. Additionally, the cost of schooling is obviously higher. The key feature inherent in all doctors whether good or bad physicians was the ability to delay gratification in the face of enormous personal effort and for the majority also a significant financial burden.

Would there continue to be growing numbers of them in the face of a Canadian doctor shortage? Would they continue to sacrifice greater numbers of hours away from the families than the average person in the workforce to hold to their idealism? Would they not hold some resentment to some of their fellow countrymen around them who enjoy a better standard of living without dedicating an equivalent to the greater societal common good?

The harsh reality of the life in third world countries somehow quickly brings you back to reality. I understood that the lifestyle of rich countries was tied to the exploitation of the poorest countries or should I dare say slavery!

The system as a whole is bound to fail the moment that people paid a dollar a day to work 12 hours mainly China would rebel. When you understand that, you see things on a different light. No wonder they say ignorance is bliss.

To address your first assumption socialistI would say that I was rather brought up quite capitalistically and would still say that each person deserve according to their effort. Where I cannot agree is the lack of control of the capitalist system. Law enforcement, civil protection, government would fall under the same kind of rule. Here, is a very good example in Canada, of underpaid social workers: The main point to understand in what I suggest is that education and your basic needs during the time of your education would be provided by the state.

So money would never be an obstacle or a motivation toward entering the medical career. Do I believe that in that context there would be sufficient physicians? Cuba has the second highest doctor-to-patient ratio in the world after Italy and the best health-care system in Latin America.

So the only real thing left to create is a real sense of compassion and empathy for others. Also of importance to note, a more educated society should need much less of the cares of physicians, less smokers, drinkers and food related diseases accidents would be the primary source of work.

I would go as far as to say that, the work load of physicians should be less than the common men the current rate of work in Canada is deplorablemore frequent vacations, so that he would never feel used by society and would be happy to give back.

I took that decision recently, when I remembered what my father used to tell me: You can guess he was just trying to get me to help some more around the house, but I can now see a greater truth to it. As much as I did to change the personal life of some people I never did anything to change the society or even tried. Therefore I decided it was my duty to try as a detractor of the present system ; my first paper will be about the true value of a profound health reform.

So at least now, if I ever succeed, you will know who the one to hate is! As a final parenthesis, another thing I find totally abnormal, is to see medical professionals smoking, obese or leaning towardabusing drugs often prescribed ones. Which security can you feel in the hands of such a person? That only shows you the decadence of the system health that is who allows it. Ashamed Ex-Canadian I completely concur with your thoughts. I do agree with you on the fact that passion is something that is required in any profession to be the best out there and to justice to the profession.

This I do not see in many doctors in Canada at least not professionally and with-in the Canadian medical system,in my personal experience though I could be wrong, I still believe many practice the profession for the material benefits as opposed to the passion to cure and rid the patient of his or her suffering. While there are a handful doctors who are very good at what they do, many of them are worried about compensation as opposed to patient health. I think the whole process of materializum and a capitalistic approach starts of at the university, with high cost to fund medical program and carries over to many medical practitioners talking about compensation to balance the time and effort spent in school.

Anyhow good discussion and while its hard to change the thinking process and end world hunger. We can all acknowledge that medicine or any other professional career should be pursed for passion and then worry about the money to help survive in an ever increasing material world. True, design engineers do not need to make many split second decisions — When I do my design I re-do my calcs a few times, consult with coleagues, etc and by the time I put my signature on the drawings I generally sleep well knowing that chances are fairly slim that whatever I designed will blow up one day.

Operations is a different story though. People are screaming at you. Things are often not working. How is that for responsibility? Just my 2 cents, thanks for listening. Look at a third world country and the Doctor is simliar to an Engineer a Lawyer much poorly compenseted than both the other professions.

Doctors enjoy memorizing I can use my little WebMD on iphone to look up medications and have a fair idea of what these medications are doing to the body etc. It is hard for me to find the same problem many times with-in the engineering field and many times the problems are very different and unique. Yet to come up with a program or database where I can punch an engineering problem and it will give me the solution which will fit the issue close to prefect….

Anyhow again boils down to supply and demand. The prestiage part of the profession, well everyone knows what a doctor does or what a lawyer does, but not many folks know what engineering is all about unless they are involved in the field….! I am really surprised to know this. I am specialist orthopedic surgeon practicing in India having my own orthopedic hospital.

One would wonder to know that I have been trying to get work in the Canadian healthcare system in orthopedic surgery for last three years- mind you not for money BUT family reunion as my son is in Canada. I am not getting any good position. I have cleared the required examinations. Twice I have undergone the evaluation by prestigious CEHPEA in Toronto and passed the evaluation as orthopedic surgeon both the times [in and ].

I am in receipt of Eligibility letter for provisional license in orthopedic surgery in province of Alberta, I am still without a position. SO I have stayed back in India. Of course I love my subject orthopedic surgery as much as I love my family. Reading this I must say Thank God that I did not choose anything else [other than becoming orthopedic specialist] in healthcare system of Canada to be with my son!

I would have been at a bigger loss than I would have expected ever since I have to support my son for his studies in Canada!! I am proud to say that even after earning in India I can support my son fully for studies in Canada.

I made a mistake. For example, one hospital near London On. A small town in NW Ontario near Minnesota border is looking for a family doc, who can also do some ER call. This does not include a signing bonus if you sign to stay for 2 years, 3 years, etc. They also pay for a locum to cover 37 days of your vacation. I find the comments made by people who are Phds and engineers etc are highly misinformed. They have no conception of how difficult it is to become a doctor.

When you get into med school its at another level. The standards and expectations are super high. If you are lucky enough to get into a competitive specialty you spend either long hours on call or long hours studying. And its over a decade of studying! The social isolation and lifestyle is appalling.

Then there is the stress of going over k in debt and not being able to make payments on it while you are working over 80hours a week for 50k salary for years of residency. Although some Phds have a difficult topic, I have never seen one work that hard. They get paid a stipend and actually make money while they are doing their degree and most can live normal lives and have relationships.

Most of my friends are engineers and they all were able to start families, buy houses go traveling and enjoy life up to as much as 7 years earlier than my doctor friends. I went to chiropractic school. I, like a Phd can call myself a doctor but have no misconception that I have worked as hard or been through as much stress as having gone to med school and residency.

I am young, fit and in optimum health but when I am over 70 and want to keep going I want there to be someone I can count on. I think that we need a pension plan for doctors similar to countries in Europe. It would allow for a little bit of that financial stress to be relieved. Also there should be some tax break or interest freeze on the tuition. If the simple economics of the profession make it so that a plumber investing conservatively is worth more at 75 than a doctor this needs to be addressed.

Family medicine is very underrated as a career choice among med students. Are you in a Family Health Network? Do you do OB, ER or anything else on the side? Did you sign up for a rural incentive placement program?

I am an engineer. Med school students are just memorizing a whole lot of material. While I do agree that medical students spend more time learning by heart they are not even close to being as creative as engineers are. It takes only willpower and being hard-working to complete or rather cram through MD.

I think only people, who work in a profession like portfolio management, semiconductor physics, computer science will appreciate my post to the fullest. To succeed in any such field you have to be a math and physics whiz form high school and then excel further in university.

I know many medical students. None of them would be able to understand differential equations. They would just memorize how to solve them without understanding. The people who understand differential equations end up doing jobs like designing new aircrafts and I do believe such jobs are the most inspiring. There are engineers who go back to med school and doctors who leave the hospital bureaucracy and grind to try consulting, the corporate Pharma world, etc. As a person who did a physics degree before med school, I can appreciate your post.

I, like you, have a high aptitude for math and find it easy to understand differential equations and such. I was drawn more to the interactions with patients and other health care team members, as well as the high pressure situations in emergency medicine. This trumped the superior intellectual satisfaction of physics. But I have two counterpoints. Does anyone really care that it is more intellectually demanding to be an engineer, other than engineers.

One does have to show a great degree of aptitude and determination to get in. The rare person who fails or quits usually does so because of personal issues rather than not being able to complete the work. At the same time, the stereotype that doctors simply memorize a large volume of information is becoming increasingly less accurate.

The amount of material to know is ever increasing, and the tools available for rapid access to resources for looking up information are continually improving. My point is that the current generation is less memorization dependent. I really only memorize the things I need to know immediately for true life or death situations.

Maybe, but only for engineers. I have just graduated Highschool in Canada and around here there is a high Indian population. Being Indian myself I know a lot of students whose parents are sending them to medical school in India because there one goes into the 4 year med program right away no under grad is required. After residence they come back to Canada and do their specialty here. However seeing how many are flocking to India for this it makes me wonder if there will be an over supply of doctors especially in the states more and more foreign Indian doctors are getting hired.

By no means am I targeting Indian doctors but rather after there being a shortage of doctors for so long and now thousands of students studying medicine abroad is it possible there soon will be an over supply? Interesting to see this comment section still going. You do 4 years of unpaid schooling in medicine 8 months of a stipend in your 4th year and then years of residency making k gross a year incrementally increases year by year while working generally wild hours.

I started univ at 19 did 6 years of undergraduate, needed an off year to reapply. Will have done 4 years of medical school. I will be 30 before I earn my first cent in medicine, and the average medical student will carry nearly k in debt, some more.

But it will have taken me years of training to get there. I will have delayed having children, home ownership and many other life milestones to get there. However, remember when you think a physician is overpaid or very well off, it was a long path of long hours and training to get to a point considered comfortable and you have to do it because you love it. I work in the HR department for a large medical center in Kansas City.

The absolute minimum salary we will pay to a general practitioner just out of residency with no specialty isWith 10 years experience, this same doctor will be paid between Obviously pay for specialists varies. What I can tell you aspiring physicians is that we just finalized a contract with an orthopedic sugeon who will be paidper year. Upon signing he received a He will be given a raise and possibly another bonus every two years. Generally, surgeons make by far the most money.

Get into neurology or some type of vital cardiac surgery and you could make over 1 million dollars in a year. Dermatologist can make a killing too. There are so many other ways of making decent money but this is what distinguishes a physician from others … to help the sick and save lives.

Now I am a general surgery trainee in USA and I have full right of complaining about compensation in general surgery when you compare it to the long working hours, poor quality of life and law suits on top of that but then i tell myself that I choose to do what I am doing and I knew very well how my life is going to be.

For me the most frustrating thing is the difference in compensation between different specialties and sub specialties in Medicine and Surgery. Now compare that to fixing 2 hip joints or even putting 2 Laparoscopic gastric band procedures obesity surgery. My point is people complain when they feel being exploited. There is so much discrimination in salary with in medical specialties and sub specialties let alone medicine and other professions.

Bottom line is 1. Do you home work before choosing a profession and once you are in that profession stop complaining. Govt should take steps for decreasing the discrimination in compensation between professions and with in a profession because insurance companies will not.

Stay happy with what you do and earn. Money has no limit neither does it gives you happiness. So, you like questioning other profession making too high of a salary. Would you like to do that job or being in their shoes? As I have found out, I have full respect for them but I would not trade what I have been doing in my life.

I have been just a jack of all trades and master of none at the age of I have done many things in life and allways being good at it. My idea of successfull is being able to do what I like. As I have fullfilled myself with some education, traveled twice around the world, and only worked as little as I have time for it at work that I like to do.

Last 2 years I paid as much as a Phd would for his years of education. I am graduated gambler now. Try to measure happiness from what you do then you will see the wisdom. This includes making changes to make you happier. This will apply to all aspects of life. And what about a doctor from an undeveloped nation, like Kenya? The creation of organizations, such as the American Medical Association, ensure that doctors will always be a profession in demand, and that it will entail lucrative pay.

Have you ever wondered why there always seems to be a shortage of doctors? And the less doctors, the more likely people are to have some affliction. And bottlenecking an essential service is the best business tactic one can use- but definitely not for the customer. But how do they set the limit? Medicine inherently is not an attractive career option- not very many people have the commitment, dedication, or passion for such a calling.

Ds, by creating strict admission guidelines, expensive tuition costs, and limited seating for medical schools. Application is an expensive process! Suddenly, medicine becomes prestigious.

The debt is only a temporary issue- as soon as a newly-licensed doctor starts to roll in the big bucks, their debt is slowly cleared. Most other countries, by comparison, treat medicine as a trade, and not as an elite position of which you can have incredible influence.

No, just another cog in the health care machine. Theorizing and solving mysteries is left to the drawing board. Do you think that the AMA hands out licenses by the bundle, just to solve the doctor shortage issue in America? Doctors get all sorts of neat things from these companies, only if they play by their rules.

Drug safety, ethics… Who cares, when it comes to money. So what do we do about this? There is so much to consider, that we must take a cautious approach to such things.

But in this case, I doubt the Hippocratic oath would condone making money at the expense of others. I see professional day in and day out. I respect all those who genuinely love their job. They attend several seminars to further their education in my establishment and most genuinely work around the same hours as I do. They deserve every penny they make and then some especially seeing and hearing their stories on a daily basis.

The only issue I have with several doctors is that they are generally socially challenged for the most part. Luckily most of them are specialist and have very little need to talk to people thankfully. Do what you love in the end. I respect all those who do. I just wanted to add that I think Pickles is quite right as to why physicians are overpaid in this country.

And that interest is not the public health. And making physicians a job like any other rather than a position of prestige and power would be one of them. In the meantime, I have this society to thank for the k I inherited from my dead mothers assets and life insurance, at the age of Making my valuation at the time k. Since then I have grown it to 1. I have roughly 1. And K in stock with 35k on margin, with the debt being in USD of course, exchanged at 1. I spend less than 15k a year. And that includes my car payments which is for the business and thus a write off.

In fact I try to spend less than that, choosing to live at relatives who charge me low rent or going as far as not heating when I stay in apartments that I rent. And try to invest 5k a month after paying off my mortgages. Money has not given me happiness and never will. I live this life which I am not really proud of in order to achieve my ultimate goal. Which is to have a profound impact on the world. I would not trade my million to be a doctor, even if I know such an investment would be financial wise.

However, I do not believe doctors help people at all. And in fact, partly because of their high salary, and partly because they have a direct interest in playing along with a band-aid health care system, are on the problem causing side of the scale when it comes to human equality and well being, not on the solution side.

I believe physicians are greatly overpaid. Much like the new crime bill can be compared to an expensive band-aid which tries, mostly unsuccessfully and often temporarily, to fix a problem. When a preventative approach would be much more cost efficient.

Especially when the biggest contributors to crime, drug addiction and poverty, could be greatly reduced with a fraction of the budget the band-aid solution will cost. That is without mentioning the human element which obviously makes inprisonment of individuals less attractive than investment in their well being. The same thing can be said about doctors and our health system.

Rather than invest on prevention we prefer to pay greatly for a band-aid solution. Which would gives us a healthy population.

We prefer to spend enormous amounts of money on providing people with a few more years or some level of relief once the problem has occurred. And this, with the help of costly surgeries and drugs which have many detrimental side effects. When prevention has only one side effect, a higher level of well being. One only has the look at heart disease for proof of this phenomenon. The very fact that a case of malnutrition is considered a disease is very telling of our health care approach.

The truth is, just as a plumber has a undeniable interest in your plumbing having problems. So does a doctor have an interest in your health having problems. With k, one could make much greater impacts on peoples health by investing in their well being, than by paying one physician to deal with their ailments once they can no longer be prevented. I have met many incompetent doctors in my life as well as very good ones.

I am both grateful towards them as I am displeased with some of them. My mother went to doctors for 1. Somehow her cancer was not detected until it had reached the liver and she had but a month to live.

Truthfully, I am glad she was not subjected to the expensive treatments that may not have even given her a good quality of life. Especially when this extension is often an agonizing one. Perhaps it is worth the cost, but it certainly does not compare to the preventative measures she could have taken. Which may have in fact been free and would have given her a higher quality of life. Namely, vegetarianism which would have immensely lowered her chances of having intestinal cancer in the first place.

BTW this site convinced me to use interactive brokers and I have never looked back since. It is by far the best and cheapest trading site. I keep a small portion of stock in an RBC direct investing account as well and sometimes appreciate their format and free info and reports.

For your entertainment, this is my present portfolio: B BCE BLND BNA. C BMO CAS CM CSCO CSGN 60 CTU. A CTY DDIC DGE DII. B DL DRX. All of the stocks in my taxable portfolio pay dividends, or at least did when I bought them. As you can see, I take risky bets in my RRSP, which I will no longer contribute to as my tax rate is too low.

I will just bank more contribution space for later. I search for stocks that are selling under book value without counting goodwill, and have very little debt, for my TFSA. Why I decided to buy retail in a quasy recession, I will never understand. It does seem that insurance companies are presently having a hard time generating enough investment return.

What do Plumbers Do? A Plumbing Trade Career with the UA

However long term elements, namely extended life expectancy still makes them attractive in the long term. Never buy simply to diversify. I knew I should have just bought more ROG to increase my Swiss dividends. I will no longer invest in other currencies, except in Hong Kong and perhaps dividend reinvestment. Not until my Canadian dividend income has reached at least 38k a year or the amount where under dividends are actually tax negative.

This current portfolio produces over 8k in dividends a year hard to know exactly how much since I keep adding and the companies increase. I do not care whatsoever about capital gains and almost never sell. Like Graham said, you only invest for one thing: Either paid to you at least once a year.

Spouse doctor received an email for medical work this Holiday Season. Rural towns within 3 hrs drive from Toronto offering shifts. They pay for your flight and pay work time when you fly and also put you up for the time there. Think cars, think Ford and Mercedes families. The patents on all the small inventions earn millions. Also, we all want to have the best healthcare. In order to attract some of the smartest people into medicine, lucrative salaries need to be offered. Sure, we will get doctors even if the salaries were mediocre, but I want my doctors that may one day save my life to be amongst the smartest people out there.

Thats why pay needs to be high. If you want doctors to be average earners, they will be the ones with average grades. In Spain, an oncologist earns about 3. I have a PhD, I am the tutor of residents, do research for free most of time I have to do it at home because no time with the busy schedule and 11 years experience after residence.

I speak French and Italian quite well. I think we are the worst paid in the western countries. Do you find fair? So my GP pockets the money for the visit and gets free labour from these students from abroad. A bit of a scheme I think. If he has to be involved with touching the human body, the student doctor from abroad does it, or I get sent to a specialist. My company has a significant number of physicians and clients.

Most of those physicians we work with are specialists. Most people would not even have a remote chance of getting into medical school far less completing it. In addition, they are dealing with situations that could have life changing effects if they are wrong.